Buffy Jamsion
(Fae/Fem/Faers)

Transcending the Status Quo: Supporting Trans and Enby Folks in Employment

Here is an edited transcript of the podcast.

 In BCPH Fellow Buffy Jamison’s podcast, “Transcending the Status Quo: Supporting Trans and Enby Folks in Employment” Buffy interviews influencer, educator, and multi-hyphenated artist, Maybe Burke about her experiences in the workplace(s). Fae once again emphasize the need to view the workplace through a public health lens and discuss the health consequences of not doing so.

Buffy:
Hey, yo what’s up everybody? It’s your boo Buffy Jamison here once again for the fifth and final iteration of my BCPH fellowship series called People Prevail Profit. Today we are talking about trans people and non binary people in the workplace and employment. And we have a very special guest today. Maybe Burke is joining us. She is a very prominent person within the trans community, and creates a lot of excellent educational material surrounding the trans community. And is just a wonderful, lovely person in general. So I want to say thank you so much for being here.

Maybe, welcome!

Maybe:
I really appreciate that. 

Buffy:
And yea I’m just happy to know ya. That all, just wanting to throw that out there. So, um, first and foremost, how do you identify?

Maybe:
You’ve mentioned I’m trans. There we go. Um, I’m a transwoman. Um, I, it’s funny because I do you know this. Um, because we’ve worked together in a couple of capacities. I often start my trainings with a disclosure of, like, privileged identities that I hold as well. And I’ve realized in recent years I’ve needed to change them, because I no longer can identify as like, skinny.

Buffy: 
Gotcha

Maybe:
I’m like on the cusp of becoming mid size, which is an interesting UM shift. But I I’m still straight size. UM And that is still a privileged identity. UM But far less people know what straight size is. Um.

Buffy:
I have no idea what it is, I haven’t been whatever straight size is in a very long time.

Maybe:
It’s an interesting place that I’m at, because, like, depending on the retailer, I am plus size, and so I guess that is mid size. But like mid size is, depends on where you shop. You might not be able to find clothes. Um I’m 31. I think. I would have to check my Tinder profile. I’m not sure. Um I-I don’t even know how to describe my orientation i just always call myself queer um I’m white um non disabled neurodivergent but not formally diagnosed anywhere along that um but definitely neurodivergent 

Buffy:
And that’s a good list and there are so many people out there who just say queer as their orientation, so totally valid. Um. A lot of the time. I do too, as opposed to saying pansexual cause I got tired of people asking, what’s that? Same was when I say, I’m gender fluid. Um. I got tired of people asking questions about that. 

Maybe:
It’s just weird when …I’ve transitioned into dating cisstraight men. And I do consider myself queer. And so I’m like, I have, like, jokingly, started referring to myself as heteroflexible and then it like, wasn’t a joke anymore. And now it’s just like, true.

Buffy:
I love that heteroflexible. I love it. 

Maybe:
Which I think is a helpful term that folks use, homoflexible and heteroflexible, um. But I’m just like, oh, I started using it, like, kind of ironically, because I thought it was a funny term for a trans woman to be using. And then I was like, oh, no, that’s actually just like descriptive of what’s going on.

Buffy:
I love it. Hey, if it works, it works. It’s about whatever words feel best for you to describe your identity, right? I want to also go ahead and ask you a question that I have heard you ask, so I totally stole this from you. How does your gender feel today?

Maybe:
Oh, is that a question I’ve asked? I also love that for me. Um… vacant.

Buffy:
Okay. I don’t think I was expecting that response. All right. Do you, do you want to talk more about that? 

Maybe: 
Maybe not vacant. Maybe, like, absent. I don’t know. Um, I don’t know. I, it’s funny because I have talked about this. I talk about this when I train too of, like, I’m not a person who like gender actually comes up for a lot in my day to day, if I’m not, like, working and talking to people about it and whatever, but like, my personal like, I don’t like choose my gender expression for the day based on. Like, how I wanna be perceived in terms of gender, so much as just like, what I wanna look like that, you know, like, that day, like, how, what I put on, um, and I’ve, it’s funny because so many people tell trans people in particular that, like, we can’t stop talking or thinking about gender. Or, like, we make such a big deal out of all these things. And I’m like, I really don’t, right? 

Buffy:
Right, Um, actually, I mean, that’s just straight up gaslighting and projection. It’s, cis people who are making a huge freaking deal about it. 

Maybe:
Literally. I’m like, turn on TV and find a show, where a cis person isn’t, like, hell bent on expressing their gender, right?

Buffy:
And often in in weird and toxic ways. On top of it, it’s like, you don’t have to overcompensate this much like we, we get it like, you’re okay, it’s all right. So what would you say? Your, your journey to accepting your gender and accepting transness and celebrating transness has been, like? 

Maybe:
I will say, accepting and celebrating our different timelines for sure.

Buffy:
True.

Maybe:
Um, like, I first told my boyfriend in college that I was a girl, and he was like, no, and I was like, oh, okay, you’re probably right, um. And I sat on it for a year. Um —- your face. (Laughs) Cause like, I was like, well, if romcoms have taught me anything, is that you know me better than I know myself. So you must be right. 

Buffy:
Oh my gosh. I hate romcoms. For that reason, and for so many other reasons. Please continue.

Maybe:
I love romcoms, which explains a lot about me as a person, but I don’t know. And so it wasn’t until, like, maybe a year or two later that I was taking a class where I actually learned about the gender binary and the fact that it’s not the only way to think about gender. And I, like read Judith Butler and all of those things, um. And that immediately helped, like, the claiming an acknowledgment that I am trans and that it’s not one thing or the other in all of that conversation, Um. And also, my transition has been pretty slow and gradual through, like, a couple of different identities, and I’ve, like, shifted significantly over the past. I mean, that was, like, 15 years ago. Now I’m talking, like, when I first started with my boyfriend. So, like, it’s been actually, literally. So I’m just at the point now that I’ve known that I’m queer longer than I thought that I wasn’t, um, that I’m just getting to that point. And so including that conversation when I was, like 16, thinking I was a gay man, and then 18, telling my boyfriend I was a girl, and then 19/20, realizing I’m non-binary. And then it wasn’t until 27, maybe that I claimed woman again, um. And so that’s the gradual, like, that’s the slow kind of claiming and refraining and using different terms and trying on different identities. Um. Even though I pretty much feel like my experience of gender has been pretty stagnant, just the words that I’ve used have changed over time, but I feel like I’ve been just chilling over here for most of it, and I’ve adjusted based on what I need people to know. Or what I want people to perceive when they think of me.

Buffy:
I mean, what you just described is not uncommon, especially not in the entire LGBT community. That is something that you will see often, especially when we’re talking about kids. Because you started this journey as a kid, you said you were 16 years old, right? So it’s very common for folks to change the labels that they use for themselves as they continue.

Maybe:
And that’s specifically like in this current political climate around the ways that people are very angry about gender affirming care and everything.

That conversation started for me 15 years ago. I was 18 when I told my boyfriend at the time that I was trans. I don’t think I even used the word trance. I don’t think I even had that word at the time. And it wasn’t until I was turning 30 that I started hormones. You know, like it took me over a decade to get to the point of choosing gender affirming care. And I feel like we don’t get enough ways to talk about different people’s timelines around those things, like, I didn’t turn 18 and sign up for bottom surgery, you know, like, that’s not how my life works for most people.

Buffy:
Exactly. And honestly, even if you have decided that 18, if that’s what you wanted, it’s very unlikely, like, unless you were just super rich, that you would have been able to get that done at 18 anyway, 

Maybe: 
Yea, like, no, especially in 2010.

Buffy:
Yes, yes, yes, right. And so, I mean, politics and the way that the world thinks about any given marginalized community can dramatically shift the trajectory of that person, um, regardless of what their identity is. So if we’re talking specifically about trans identity, you will, you will see this delay, um, with some folks when it comes to even just understanding that they’re trans, um, because of the way that things are right. So over the past, I don’t know, like during the Obama years, I would say things were a little bit better in terms of people starting to learn, um. But then, of course, you know, backlash, because with progress always comes backlash. And so now it’s getting harder again for people to learn. So it might not be until, you know, someone enters their twenties or thirties that they actually understand who they are.

How would you say your other identities inform your trans experience?

Maybe:
Um, I’ll definitely say, like, my whiteness protects me in a lot of ways. Um, I think before anything, I’m a white person in this country, you know, um. And that really informs a lot of the ways that I behave, a lot of access that I have to certain things, how seriously I’m taken in conversations as a trans person, even, um, and all of those pieces and things. It’s an interesting conversation of like my age also is in conversation with my transness. Because, like the age that you are when you discover that you’re trans, how long I’ve known that I’m trans, that all informs a lot about our relationships to our transness. Because the conversation about transness is so rapidly changing and growing that, like, back in 2010, I didn’t have me on Tik tok to look at, you know, like, I didn’t have, like, a lot of representation. And so it took me a while to actually pinpoint, like, oh, that’s what I am, because there were examples of it. And I think age does play out a hard role in queerness in general, um, of like when you were raised, when you finally realized certain things and all of that aging race in particular, um, go really hand in hand. And then, I mean, orientation and gender always go hand in hand, because the ways we have conversations about who we might be attracted to is based in gender. So, like those two are often linked. 

Buffy:
Um, yes, also. UM, what you had to say just now about age and specifically about generation, UM, is what I heard you saying, that definitely has a huge impact on all of our, our identities. We don’t talk about it as often as I think we need to talk about it, um, we talk about it more. So, I think, we do in the LGBT community, but it tends to be in terms of a deficit, right? Because we have to remember that history. We have to remember the eighties. We have to remember the AIDS pandemic, which is still happening, by the way. We just like to pretend like it’s not. And, you know, we lost a lot of our LGBT elders during that time, um. And so it’s, you know, I think it’s more so talked about in terms of that, but not in terms of what we can do as people who are here now, for the next generation and for those who are coming up under us.

Um, would you say there have been any setbacks for you? Um, in terms of your experience?

Maybe:
I mean, the fun thing of being a marginalized person, the funding about discrimination is that it’s rare that you can actually pinpoint and prove it. So I-I have strong feelings that it has impacted me personally and professionally in a lot of ways um but i can’t tell you i didn’t get that promotion because i was TRANS you know I can’t definitely say that I would be working in a different field or, you know, I can’t definitely say those things.

I can’t definitely tell you that I’m not booking more TV shows because I’m trying, you know. But I believe it. I think it’s true. Um, especially as an actor. Um, especially as a musical theater performer. It’s like, really blatant. I have been an audition, and I sang my little song in my little key, and then casting was like, “what’s your highest belt?” And I was like, I don’t sound like a ciswoman. That’s just not attainable, right? Also, like, google me, like, you could have seen that before I walked in the room. So, like, I can’t say that I don’t book those things because I’m trans, necessarily, because I might also just not be right for the project. But also, most of what I have booked were specifically looking for. Every TV show I’ve booked was specifically looking for somebody queer, um, but the exception of one. But I do see that, like, being queer was like a positive for them, um. And then, on the other side of my career, like I spent most of last year, literal calendar year, like trying to find a new job after, you know, being released from and a company shutting down, and I got to the point where I had to run my own company and keep myself afloat because I couldn’t get hired anywhere else. I got one interview that year, and it was in a DEI office.

Buffy:
And, and what you just describes anyone from a marginalized background completely understands, right? Like, did I not get into this, this club because I’m poor and because of the clothes I was wearing, right? I can’t really prove that. Did I not, you know, get hired for this job because I’m black and everybody in the office seems to be white. Did I, you know, not get hit for an interview because my pronouns were listed on my resume, and they are not SHE pronouns, right across the board. There’s so many different experiences that that parallel what you just talked about additionally. So this has a bit of background for the listeners. Um, Maybe and I both worked at the same organization, and we’re both in the same situation. Last year, um, I actually ended up applying to over a hundred jobs, I think a couple of them. I got to like the end, right? Where it was between me and another candidate, something that would happen each time, though, regardless of how well the interview went, there are always times when people start picking at things, right?

So it’s like, well, this has to be too good to be true. This person could not possibly have all of these skills, right? So then they start asking questions that would fall outside of the scope of the job that I’m looking at, right? Like, do you have this experience though? Um. And I’m like, why are you asking me if I have experience in your job? Are you, is that what you’re hoping for when I get there? Like, I’ll take on your task? I don’t get it right. Um. But I think there are so many people who have that experience. And specifically with trans people. While you cannot necessarily prove it if we look at the trans community as a whole, that is the proof right there. The fact that there are so many trans folks who are unemployed or underemployed, I mean, right there, that that gives us proof of the discrimination that tends to happen.

Maybe:
And that’s actually something that I noticed in the last year. I also applied to probably that many jobs. I actually took a suggestion from black communities, um, where I changed my name on my resume because of the studies that have been done and the people who have talked about, like, quote, black sounding names not getting interviewed and things. And I was like, oh, my name is, Maybe. I’m probably getting flagged out of, like, AI filters and whatever. And so I went with just Mae, um, and then got an interview, and I was like, a song, break, 

Buffy:
Yes, which is a whole other conversation, AI filters and how discriminatory they are, and how the majority of the people who do the work tend to be white and tend to be men. Which is always going to translate into bias. If, if that’s the case, like always, I remember even just a few years back, when native folks were in an uproar over Facebook because they could not access their accounts because Facebook decided that their names were fake. Just what? And, you know, it was something that was happening to the trans community as well. So it’s, I know, what we just talked about is definitely, um, definitely something that I think many people have experiences with.

What are some things that you have witnessed in terms of gender in the workplace and that can be with trans folks or cisgender folks, right?

Maybe:
Well, I mean, I’ve made this fun little career out of literally addressing gender in the workplace, so I’ve witnessed a lot, um, yes, you think, I think I witnessed the most is that people are so scared of doing the wrong thing that they don’t even think about what the right thing might be. And I don’t necessarily think there is a right thing, um. But, like, it’s kind of like that mentality that if you are driving and you look over, like, to the side, you will start veering to the side. The more about the bad thing that you might say or do, the more you’re just gonna do harmful, you know, you’re gonna lean into that harm, um, instead of imagining what could be and thinking about the positives and the possibilities that are possible. And that’s where my whole like life motto of Believe in Maybe became my company name, because it’s about imagining what could be and trusting what can be, and kind of making people think more about the positives and like, what their ideal workplace looks like, so that they are not leaning into the bad and the ugly by thinking about it too much.

Buffy: 

Yes, 100 %, which I think it’s sort of a hallmark of the way that our society, in that Western society likes to look at trans folks, in general, it’s always coming from this place of pain, from this place of harm, from this place of deficit, right? We’re, we’re not actually tending to look at the positive and come at it from that direction.

Maybe:
And that’s like the larger societal shift that I long to see is like people being okay with being imperfect and people being okay with making mistakes and claiming them and moving on, you know, um, because a lot of people are scared of the feeling of messing up so they don’t try. It’s easier for them to choose to do the wrong thing than to try and fail.

Buffy:
And that’s real. And again, that’s something that can be a whole other podcast series, honestly, um, people, you know, being so ashamed and so afraid to be wrong, that they instead double down in their wrongness. Um, specifically, when it comes to trans people, I mean, there’s this idea out there that trans non binary people are just going to scream at people and get so upset and run into the bathroom and cry if you, you know, get our pronouns incorrect. I feel like that has become a running stereotype. Now, at this point, you know, the angry trans person. But, you know, most people can tell if you’re trying, and if you are trying, they usually give you grace.

How would you say these experiences affected you not just in the workplace, but in in your personal life?

Maybe:
I mean, I’ve had to build a career where I’m not working for other people because, partially, I couldn’t get hired by that, you know, also, I didn’t see, I used to work a lot of, like, customer service and a lot of like, events, endings. And the political climate has gotten to a point where I don’t want to be in those positions at this point. My social media is also work. And marketing for my work, um, I do ads with brands and get paid on social media. Sometimes, like, everything has kind of turned into work, and that’s kind of just the side of I do so many different things for work. And professionally, I’m a multi hyphenated artist, like I’m an educator as well. I do a lot of different things, and that is the way that I’m able to continue doing all of those things, um, but it has turned it into, kind of, I mean, not necessarily, like, I never turn it off because I do. I’m not, like one of those influencers who is, like, filming every meal. And, you know, that kind of, like, when I go outside, I kind of forget to be filming and documenting my days in my lives, um, which is why I’m not as popular on social media as I probably could be. Um. But it is the thing that, like, if I’m getting ready for, like, a nice event, like I-I already was earlier today thinking, about like my brother’s wedding and like content i, can SHOOT like he doesn’t even have a date for it yet. And I’m already thinking about, like, turning a personal event into that. My personal and professional, like blur is, like, very, very blurred.

Buffy:
Which is something, again, that happens to a lot of people, um, who are in positions like ours, unfortunately, a lot of marginalized folks, you know, the personal lives get smaller and smaller, because in order to survive capitalism, we have to make money. Right? And so in your situation, it is about turning any and every skill that you have that could have just been for you and for your leisure into something that you can monetize. For other folks, it might be that they’re working two, three, four jobs, and that’s why they don’t have a personal life, right?

Maybe:
And, you know, I used, that was definitely me before the pandemic, hit.

Buffy:
Mhm. Because it’s about survival, which is sad, and which is the whole reason why I did this, this series, because I want to highlight that just because things have always been a certain way, it doesn’t mean that they have to say that way. In fact, they should not. We need to lean into change.

Are there practices and policies in the workplace that might make this problem worse for folks?

Maybe:
I mean, definitely an interesting thing that I’ve been noticing is there’s so many, like ways it’s always been, you know, um, that don’t make sense for our world anymore, you know, like, right? There’s people operating with, like, policies, and things that, like, work from Home has changed whether or not those policies need to be in place, like, all of these weird, kind of, like, kind of arbitrary, if not, like, archaic rules in place, or, like, expectations to, like, show up at meetings. Even though you don’t have to be at that meeting, like, especially when you’re not in an office, is kind of so outdated, in my opinion.

And, like, really changes the ways in general those things come up for folks, um, but also, I know a lot of trans and non binary folks in particular, look for remote jobs and things so that they don’t have to worry about an office dress code and, like, how they’re gonna be perceived by their peers. And, like, all of those pieces. So having to go to, like, a mandatory all team meeting where you like, have to have your camera on and blah, blah, blah and, like, all of these things is like, kind of defeats the point of looking for a remote job, you know, yes, really, the like, lack of trust that employers have for their people. And, like needing to, like, prove whether it’s like, people who, like, move their mouse because their company tracks how active they are on teams and things like that, even though they’re not, like, currently working on something.

Buffy:
Wow. I mean, talk about micromanaging. That is, wow. Huh.

Um. Going back to what you were saying, I’m curious about how that translates to performing arts. What does that look like there? 

Maybe:
Um, one in particular that isn’t necessarily about gender, but is just about, like, safety in general is like, people have really cut back on masking and, um, awareness of the COVID 19 pandemic, and that makes it really hard, especially in a field where. Like, we’re on top of each other, you know, um, like, I’m preparing to do a contract at the end of the year where I have to kiss somebody, and I’m like, if he’s not taking care of himself and I have to kiss him eight times, probably more than eight. Like multiple times a show, then I’m like, eight times a week. If he’s not taking all the precautions that I’m taking, my precautions are kind of out the window. 

But I think definitely around gender. I see this all the time. I know chorus calls, like calls for the ensemble and like dance calls for shows will have two calls, one for men and one for women. And it’s like, what are we doing? Like, what are we doing there? And that’s the conversation of casting. I have been lucky to work with some casting directors, and they talk with them about these conversations better. But like I there was a show recently, within, like, the last five years that I went in for that there was a track in the ensemble that was designated specifically. They were like, this is going to be a trans feminine person. And I was like, okay, I see you like, carving out space for that, but I want to audition for this role, right? And I was like, you’ve decided this one has to be trans, so you’re calling me in for this role, but I would be good at that role, and you won’t see me for it. And that comes up a lot that, like, there’s like a trans character or like, whatever that may be, and then you don’t consider me for where my strong suits actually lie, like where the talent actually might be.

Buffy:
The entertainment industry has always seen tokenism as the way to solve the problem of discrimination always, and obviously this is a problem in other industries as well, but specifically in entertainment. It’s interesting because you’re putting on a product that millions of people, hopefully, or at least hundreds of people, will have eyes on. And so because of that, you have so many people out there who give this industry all of this feedback, and yet that still seems to be the way that people handle things.

Maybe:
I think it’s easiest to pinpoint in entertainment, definitely, um, but you’re right, it happens everywhere. But it always comes down to money, right? And it always comes down to people not believing that trans people or insert marginalized group here aren’t going to be profitable enough. And so it’s rare that I get to play a romantic lead, right? Um, it’s rare that I get to be part of a story that’s not trying to be like edgy or trying to talk about this specific issue for, like, an episode or whatever it may be. And that’s, that’s where it’s definitely just like what people are looking for or hoping to do really impacts my ability to work to get hired 

Buffy: 
100 % UM. And I also just wanna point out, for anybody in the entertainment industry who is listening to this, um, Maybe does have a lot of training that she gives over this topic. Um. And just a little bit of advice. Um, it’s, it’s really not necessary to separate people into genders. When you’re doing casting calls, like, if it’s about, like, what people are going to wear, because that’s what I imagine that has to do with and what you’re making assumptions about, you know, people’s flexibility in terms of their dancing, or you’re making assumptions about what the voices are going to sound like based on choral calls and whatnot. Um, it, it doesn’t make sense to do that. It makes a lot more sense to look at what exactly folks are able to do with their bodies, and then go from there, right? So, um, if you are looking for a particular sound in a choir, right? Or in the chorus, then you can make a casting call for altos, for sopranos, for, you know, for tenors.

If we are looking for someone who can be lifted up right by their dancing partner, then, you know, put out, you know, a casting call for someone who, you know, has experience with that and who has had success with being lifted up. And then a call for people who have had success lifting other people up, right? It’s really about what people are able to do, not who these folks are. Just throwing that one out there while we’re on the subject. 

So despite these experiences, Maybe, how have you prevailed? And what steps have you taken to continue to grow and thrive?

Maybe:
Luckily, I’m a person who has been able to create a lot of my own opportunities through social media, but also, like I first made my name in New York by writing a show and performing it. I did a solo show, um, that got myself in people’s minds, you know, um. And that’s kind of how I was able to do that at the time. I wasn’t actually auditioning as an actor though, like, um, I’ve had a weird little career, but essentially marrying my two careers and passions of like DEI work and theater entertainment world. I’m currently working on Broadway on a national tour in DEI because I’ve been able to carve out this weird little trunk for myself, where I am a person who my expertise lies in this industry, but also in gender affirming practices and identity, big education. And honestly, just like those aren’t, like, everything that I do, social media, and all of those things are intentionally set up to help me grow and thrive, like, and to help sustain that and to push that forward. Um, I just started a blog again because I have a memoir that I wrote that I’m trying to sell as well. UM. And like all of these things are actually interlinked and intertwined. Learning as much as I can, working with as many people as I can, and in as many ways as I can, makes it so that I can do multiple things on a project or find the right spot for me on a project.

Buffy:
And that’s amazing. I love that you get to work onstage as well as offstage and behind the scenes, because that’s extremely important. And I hope to see you center stage someday, because you deserve that. And you’re very, very talented. Just wanna throw that one out there.

What does trans liberation mean to you?

Maybe:
Everything.

Um, well, trans liberation doesn’t just mean trans liberation. To me, trans liberation saves all of us. I mean, you know, like none of us are free until we all are like, trans liberation means anti racism and also trans liberation means joy. Trans liberation means relaxing. Um, I get asked often specifically doing what I do. People are like, how do you keep going? Like, people see what I’m doing, and they’re like, that looks exhausting. Um, like the trainings I give and all of those things. And honestly, I’m a person. The reason I do it, and the reason I’m good at it is because it fills me up. It actually is, like, revitalizing for me. It doesn’t exhaust me. And it gets there sometimes, you know. But like, if I have a good training and I can, like, see the wheels turning in people’s minds, or if I’m, like, working on a project with a consulting client, and I actually like, positively impact somebody’s experience in the workplace, that makes me keep. You know, like that is enough to fuel me and to keep me going. And that’s what trans liberation looks like to me. 

Buffy:
And, you know, liberation is intersectional, um, that’s basically what we have been talking about here. What do you think liberation could look like in the workplace specifically?

Maybe:
I mean, creatively, like in entertainment and creative fields, it looks like broadening what’s possible. You know, I mean, everywhere it is that. But in creative fields, it’s like, like the example that I was giving, don’t predetermine what track is going to be played by a trans person. Let us come in and tell you where we fall, you know, or show you what we can do, and then keep that open mind. It’s also like, as shows are trying to, like, have, like, a trans story line or a trans character, I’m like, I know so few trans people who are the only trans person in their life, right? Give that person a friend group. Um, no, that’s for, that’s no real, no, like, not, not really leaning into that, like, isolation. Um, just letting us be right. And in other professional settings, in, like other industries, in other fields, it’s a similar thing. It’s like, I often offer like, four questions for people to ask themselves when they see or they make a mention of gender. And it’s just about kind of un learning and, like, kind of taking the veil off of the ways that we’ve been, like, taught and forced to think. And it’s really just as simple as, like, asking yourself, is it necessary, like, dove soap? Um, is it inclusive? Like, is it just two options we’re talking about, who is it helping, which is usually capitalism, and who might it be hurting, which is usually not minorary people in specific But I actually think that all of us are harmed by the gender binary being so rigidly enforced.

Buffy:
Yes. 

Maybe:
Um. And so that’s like the way that this can show up in larger conversations of, like, going through policies, going through, like, your day to day in the workplace, and just putting that little filter of those four questions over things, and then potentially restructuring some things, making some new decisions. Hiring me to come have a conversation, and whatever that they look like.

Buffy:
What can workplaces and employers do to support their trans employees, whether or not there’s a trans or non binary person in the workplace?

Maybe:
Gender affirming practices benefit all of us. So we should just be prioritizing gender affirming practices, not just making accommodations for specific people. And yet, if we are in a situation where a certain person is like experiencing harm, listen to them. It’s really as simple as that, sometimes just giving the person a space to be heard, validating what they’re going through, and then making sure it changes. Sometimes you need a little bit of help with that. Buffy and I are available… 

Buffy:
Yes we are!

Both: (Laugh)

Buffy:
What advice do you have for trans folks, and that’s in general?

Maybe:
I’ll say, for like transport in general, like in the workplace, in professional world, and things divorcing your success at capitalism from your sense of self, right? Especially in a world that wants to eradicate us, knowing that, like, being alive is enough, like you are enough. Um, it’s funny. There’s a social media post, like, maybe years ago, that I kind of need to make again, um, I got a comment on Tick Talk that was like, saying that I’ll never amount to anything. And I fully made a response just being like, am I not anything? like, first of all, like, I’m kind of at the top of, like, two different fields in my career, but also, like the ways I contribute to capitalism are not my worth. That’s not my sense of self. Like, that’s not my joy. That’s not my pride. And so, especially for trans folks who it’s so hard for us to win that game or survive in that game, not putting the pressure on yourself, that there’s something wrong with you if you’re not in the game, you know. 

Buffy:
You sharing your story in the way that you have today is going to help so many people. Um, who can relate. All right, fault. I want to thank you so much for joining me in the conversation. UM, this will not be the last time. Please continue the conversation amongst yourselves until then.

Thank you so much.

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